| Archive for seedfieldtalk.myfastforum.org A discussion forum on Christian topics. |
| Darthmiller |
Evangelism wow!Has anyone out there read this fantastic book, The Isaiah Vision: An Ecumenical Strategy for Congregational Evangelism? If not get hold of a copy......why are you still sat there? Go on. Get one.What's it about? Ah well I suppose I should say. The Isaiah Vision is the most powerful book on evangelism I have ever read. And, it's a different kind of evangelism, but one we need. Raymond Fung wrote The Isaiah Vision based on Isaiah 65:17-25. Here's the heart of Fung's book: 1. Children do not die. 2. The elderly live out their lives in dignity. 3. Those who build houses live in them. 4. Those who plant vineyards eat the fruit. If this is part of God's plan to "create new heavens and a new earth" then I guess this is about a good as the "good news" gets. This is God's promise, not ours, all we need to do is cooperate with it. The question becomes, how do we invite others into the blessing of the good news of God? I think Fung has an answer. 1. Do something so that children do not die. 2. Do something so the elderly live out their lives in dignity. 3. Do something so that those who build houses get to live in them. 4. Do something so that those who plant get to eat the fruit of their labor. Fung's brief book contains a great story about how young women who work in the factories of Hong Kong studied the Bible and influenced labor legislation in that city. But I think for me, Fung raises the bar on evangelism from personal only (which is what most of us evangelicals are used to) to societal. The gospel transforms not only individuals, but cultures as well. We all might want to think God's thoughts about how we can cooperate with God's plan. In working with the community around a church we become part of that community. We can then invite them to worship with us as we do what we need to do to find the strength to do the work we do, explaining that we want to pray for and with the community we are working in, then as time goes on we invite them to become disciples of Jesus to become ordinary people doing extraordinary things for God, to turn their lives around and away from sin. Not pressuring them into doing so nor leaving them to decide to do it alone. We should let them know that Jesus wants them as a disciple, it is why they have got to the point they are at. It is not something they MUST do to remain, but something that God wants of them. (much of this review was unashamedly nicked from http://amicusdei.typepad.com/amicus_dei/2007/02/the_isaiah_visi.html) |
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| paulvipond |
Sounds interesting and reflects a recovery of the church of God's "big plan". Of course to some conservatives this will look like the "social gospel" of the mid 20thC. As you say we need to recover the understanding that the gospel is not just "you can have your sins forgiven and go to heaven when you die" but "Jesus is Lord of All and He will make all things new". Some sin is not just personal but societal.
Have a look at the Nooma entitled "Bullhorn" I think you will find some resonances. |
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| Darthmiller |
It also links with the concept of Missio Dei as outlined by David Bosch in his excellent book Transforming Mission: Paradigm shifts in theology of mission. This states that we are not "God's Church with a mission" instead we are a "Church whose God has a mission" | ||||
| Eli |
Or....
you could just talk to people about Jesus, making them aware of their wretched state before the judgement seat of the Almighty and telling them of the Saviour that can be theirs through repentance and trust. It works! It's cheap and... it has the approval of the Master! |
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| paulvipond |
Or.... We could do all that and tell people the rest of the gospel message and expect us and them, by God's grace, to live accordingly individually, corporately and societally 
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| paulvipond |
Hey, Eli. Not turning into a Gnostic are you? 
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| Eli |
Ahem.... no....
"Why lose out on Luke's recording of the apostles calling Jesus, Master. Why not refuse to relinquish a perfectly good biblical word to the tree huggers? After all we had it first!" 
What's with the "dust of the Rabbi?" Speaking personally, I'm washed clean by the blood of the Lamb. 
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| paulvipond |
Hi, Eli: "Follow a rabbi, drink in his words, and be covered with the dust of his feet," says the ancient Jewish proverb. Disciples followed so closely that they would be covered with the dust kicked up by the rabbi's feet. So the answer to your question is to get people to ask, "What's with the dust of the rabbi?" so that I get to explain its about seeking to walk so closely with the Lord Jesus, the Jewish Messiah[and therefore everyone else's as well], that I will be close enough (figuratively speaking) to be covered in the dust off his feet. Thinking of the pictorial language of proverb and apocalypse I hadnt realised that it is our white robes that get "washed in the blood" not us. Perhaps its one one of those shifts that happen like "money is the root of all evil". |
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| DavidH |
Doesn't the phraseology of this last sentence imply that the church doesn't need to involve itself in mission? Essentially, it is saying that God has the mission and it is the church's choice whether to engage with it or not. A bit like saying "Manchester United play football. I support them but don't need to play myself." Shouldn't we consult God's Word about His intent for mission rather than alternative spiritualities of the postmodern thinkers of the ecumenical movement? I might be wrong, but delving into my extremely rusty school latin, I think that "Missio Dei" can mean both "sending (mission) OF God" and "sending (mission) BY, WITH or FROM God" - Maybe the use of the Latin phrase was meant to be ambiguous
After all, the ecumenical movement owes a lot to Rome. Why am I always deeply suspicious of anyone who hides behind jargon words like "paradigm shift?" 
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| Eli |
I've seen Bullhorn. Rob Bell certainly has a downer on street preachers, doesn't he? Was he attacked by a bullhorn guy as a child? Just to remind Christians of their "bullhorn" heritage... John the baptist, Peter, Paul, Jesus... ... John (and Charles) Wesley, George Whitefield, Finney, Spurgeon, Moody, Gipsy Smith, Billy Graham, etc. etc. etc. It's God's way - it isn't wise to call God's chosen method into question in such a flippant way as Bell does. |
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| paulvipond |
I guess it depends on both the street preacher and the street. A friend in Nigeria tells me that if you stand on a street corner in Nigeria and begin to preach you will quickly gather a crowd of 200 listeners. In the UK you will, in the main, get no listeners and very possibly moved on by the men in blue [thats the police not the mormons  ]
So our message is the same but the audience is not. I dont know enough about your list of "greats" but I do know that both Wesley and Graham preached to crowds who had come to listen, not passers by who had not. There is no escaping the statistics that 80% of western christians come to faith because God reaches out to them, with the gospel, through a friend. If the church were truly awake to that fact we would put much more effort into training each other to co-operate with God in that process. In the UK I would venture to suggest that is "God's chosen method". I have no doubt God can use someone preaching in the local shopping mall but in 30 years I have never met a christian who has come to faith through that particular route. Has anyone else? How many? I dont know how accurate a portrayal "Bullhorn" is of the american scene but transferred to the UK I think it says ,"if you cant communicate the good news of the Lordship of Jesus the Messiah, please dont bother." |
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| DavidH |
There are many instances of people coming to Christ through the ministry of a street preacher. As an example, the Salvation Army made large use of this method of Gospel presentation along with their social care programme towards the end of the 19th century.
Where do these statistics come from? Firstly, only God knows whether these 80% are really Christians. The last census stated that something like 73% of Britons class themselves as "Christian." Looking around all those empty churches and watching the antics of both government and public, I somehow doubt this. Maybe if the census had asked for their personal testimony.... I know quite a few people engaged in street ministry who would testify to the fact that many people DO come to Christ as a result of street preaching and witnessing. Sorry about the huge URL here http://www.christianmyspacelayout...-ray-witnessing-in-deep-ellum/123 but click on it and watch how taking the biblical gospel to the streets affects the life of this group of teens. Greg Ray is handing out coins with the Ten Commandments stamped on them... Lasts about ten minutes |
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| paulvipond |
Interesting video. A couple of things struck me. 1. This was an american example closer methinks to my Nigerian example than a UK one. 2. Greg Ray did not need to explain what the 10 Commandments are, let alone who God is. 3. This is what you have when you have a heavily "churched" culture (even if not actually christian) as opposed to a largely secular culture. 4. Your UK example is from the C19th. Another "churched" if not "christian" culture. I found this of interest on the LICC website: "Why would anyone become a Christian in Britain today? "Why, when God is dead, religion a cause of global conflict and the church inflexible, illiberal and irrelevant, would anyone in their right mind embrace the Christian faith? People do. Somewhere upwards of 15,000 a year, at a rough estimate – though surprisingly little research is done to find out how and why. Over the last two years, LICC has worked with an ecumenical body in Scotland on a research project exploring why people ‘find faith today’. The results were always interesting, often inspiring and, above all, bewilderingly varied. If you didn’t know that everyone was talking about the same thing, you would never have guessed. Three things stood out, however. First, the importance of people. It is people who bring others to Christ (hold the front page!). But not special or particular people. The research showed that you didn’t have to be a minister, an elder or a theology graduate to play this role. Everyone – ‘our son … my sister … my gran … my ex-girlfriend … this family I teach … my wife’s colleague’ – did their part. There were no extras. Second, the importance of God. Obvious, you would think, but as a researcher you don’t really want God to turn up. He doesn’t do things your way. He messes up your theories. You can never pin him down. But he was there, nonetheless, making the whole of each person’s story somehow greater than the sum of its parts. Third, the importance of the church. Time and again, people surprised themselves. They knew all about what was wrong with churches, yet they still spoke glowingly about the impact the church (meaning the body of Christians) had had on them. There was ‘something completely different’ about church, a ‘feeling of togetherness and unconditional acceptance’. ‘They were … the church family in the proper sense,’ one young man said[/i]."[/i] I might get the full report.................... Who knows street preaching may still be in there
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| DavidH |
The article is interesting but a bit limited in its source of research, and possibly biased (given the "ecumenical" tag.) An ecumenical group in Scotland (a rarity in itself,) can hardly speak for the whole of the UK, can it, In fact, It would be difficult enough to speak for the whole of Scotland. I would imagine that their focus, for the most part, was the central belt cities, (Glasgow, Stirling, Edinburgh,) rather than the Lowland farming communities or Highland villages and hamlets.
I know of one church in Ullapool (Northern Highlands, West coast,) that engages in witness to the thousands of tourists who pass through in the Summer and, they've seen results (if fleetingly) in attendance at their meetings. Astonishingly, these were the "Wee Frees" - the hard line Calvinist wing of the Free Church of Scotland! The resultant points are hardly ground-breaking research, are they? People are important, God's important and the "Church" is impressive when acting in unity. However... To answer some earlier statements... John Wesley is reported many times as having been physically assaulted and otherwise abused during his open air meetings, as were Whitefield and other early Methodist preachers. This is hardly the reaction of an invited audience. They knew that Wesley and co were coming but they were in no way "Wesleyans". Indeed, in Bolton (yes, that one,) John Wesley was dragged from the town cross where he was preaching and folk tried to stone him. Billy Graham, in addition to his stadium appearances was known to have visited bombed-out illegal bars in the streets of Belfast during the 1970's. Again, I'm not sure that the Republicans and Loyalists would have, out of choice, invited him to preach but preach he did. Just an example. Space is limited here. You will never be able to communicate the Lordship of Jesus until you have preached the law. The law is the "schoolmaster" that brings us to Christ. The reason why so many "Christians" leave the church is that they were never really sure of why they needed to be saved in the first place. Coming to church because the people are friendly and engaging isn't the same as receiving a saving relationship with Jesus. I could join a luncheon club and get the same fuzzy feeling. Well, maybe not a luncheon club, but you get the picture? Whatever method is used to drag people within hearing range, in order to be saved, (And, as a result, join the church,) they still have to receive the same message. Just as an aside, and to save me ranting on the old hobby horse, I'll put this open to the board... What is the basic Gospel message? What is it that the person outside the church door has to hear or read and acknowledge in order to be assured of their eternal salvation? I promise I won't jump on anyone's view. I'm just interested to know the consensus view of Seedfield's evangelists |
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| paulvipond |
David's question is so important I have opened another thread. Here I would just ask, "Who are Seedfield's evangelists?" Followed perhaps by, "When we know who they are how do we train them up and release them?" |
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| countrydancer |
Evangelism Wow!Please see my posting on the subject of What is the gospel? |
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| DavidH |
Ahem... Don't really know who "Seedfield" would classify as an evangelist but we're ALL the Lord's evangelists. Biblically, an evangelist is simply someone who presents the "evangel" or "good tidings". What the church has made of the job since then is something else entirely. As to training, after years and years of "sessions" "seminars" and "series" I think it's time we just opened up the Word and started to share the light that we've been given. Otherwise, we'll still be training when the Lord returns. Continuous training seems to give the impression of activity but produces few results. The Holy Spirit was sent to equip God's people for evangelism. The Lord's people should be motivated by love for those that Jesus died for. Remember "For God so LOVED the world..." There's a very popular saying, sometimes attributed to St Francis of Assisi, although, the Franciscans deny all knowledge of it. It goes something like... "Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary use words." Isn't that a bit like saying ... "Feed the hungry at all times, If necessary use food?" Now, just let me get behind the sandbags. Ok, Fire away!!! |
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