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paulvipond · Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Bury

Lost and found
by John Fischer

The world is not wrong as much as it is lost, and “lost” is the operative word here.

For some time now, it seems to have been very important to many people in the church and in Christian circles that the world is wrong. As a result, a good deal of effort has been put into trying to fight the wrong in order to overcome it and make right prevail. This has been unfortunate in some ways for our mission in the world, which is to spread the Good News of Christ’s forgiveness to all because of the cross, and invite people to become followers of Christ. As a result, a confusing mixed message has gone out. Something like: We love you and want to let you know that Christ died for your sins; we really don’t like you unless you see things the way we do.

Unfortunately, I’m afraid the second message has been much louder than the first. It’s become more important to make society Christian than to make Christians in society.

There’s one way to a quick attitude change that will help us get back on track with our mission. Think of the world as being not wrong as much as it is lost, and “lost” is the operative word.

When someone is wrong, the other’s job is to set that person right. Do you have anybody like this in your life – someone who is out to set you straight in some area? How happy are you to see this person as a general rule? This attitude creates a very conditional relationship and one in which the person who is “right” is always better. In contrast, when someone is lost, the other’s job is to find that person, and believe me, someone coming to my rescue is a much more welcome sight than someone coming as my judge.

Jesus stated his mission was as one coming to seek and to save what was lost (Luke 19:10). He loved the lost. He told lots of stories about lost things: a coin (Luke 15:8-10), a pearl in a field (Matthew 13:44-46), one sheep among a hundred (Luke 15:3-7), and one son who was lost – who when he came home, was not touted for being wrong, but was celebrated for having been found (Luke 15:11-27)!

God’s heart is really big. He’s already dealt with the right versus wrong thing on the cross. No need to spend a lot of time proving what we already know about everyone, including ourselves: We’re all wrong. Let’s get back to finding people who are lost and the joy of being found ourselves (because we were lost, too). I think that will be much closer to our mission.
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acewelder · Joined: 29 Jan 2007 Posts: 5

Without meaning to ignore your latest entry, Paul, (I just can't shake off the feeling that debating the 'lost' of this nation is nearing a lost cause as I will try to explain.) Yesterday I stated in church that I believed the darkness that engulfs our nation (indeed, the world!) is gaining momentum. I quoted the adoption bill as one area where satan's influence is strong. Unfortunately the 6.o.clock news has just greeted me with the fact that the christian adoption agencies have been given 20 months to comply with the bill ( they must allow homosexual/ lesbion couples to adopt). No amount of talking will alter this.
Oops, I should be on my way to home group, so I'll continue the topic at a later date

paulvipond · Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Bury

Interestingly enough what is it that we actually object to with adoption by homosexual partners?
The Bible clearly condemns (I believe) same sex sexual acts but doesn't say anything about "inclinations".
So laying aside the odd notion that some people have that "homosexual" must equal "paedophile" where are we going to draw the line on sin?

Where are the churches saying gossips and slanderers should not be able to adopt? Or the lovers of money and the proud & haughty? Or thieves and drunkards? Or idolaters? Perhaps we should exclude all sinners? Oops I think I just re-filled all the orphanages!

The point of opposing the adoption bill was to preserve our right of conscience not to prevent homosexuals adopting. Trouble is by what right do we draw the line about who is or is not good enough to be a parent? If we were all under God's spotlight perhaps we would all be calling the adoption agency saying "I am not good enough".

Dont you just love the fact that Jesus does not allow us to make moral judgements just a matter of looking up the rule book!
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Make you walk in the dust of your rabbi, Jesus

acewelder · Joined: 29 Jan 2007 Posts: 5

At the risk of taking a trouncing from such a formidable scholar as yourself, Paul, I will stand my ground on this one. In reply to your first point I look at it on the whole, not judging all homosexuals to be paedophiles, but from the childs viewpoint. Case1, (2 women) little boy hurts his knee in a fall and shouts for mummy! which one goes to his aid? Does the child grow up thinking 2 mummies is the norm? Case2, Little girl adopted by 2 men. Who tells her about her 'female' problems when the time comes? I know these might appear stupid cases but they COULD and no doubt would occur. Ministers (political) have been queueing up to argue that every child needs the best possible family life, and I couldn't agree more, but since when has being placed in a home with no father, or mother ( and both parents commiting abnormal acts) been the best possible solution!?
Your point concerning the churches stand regarding sinners as a whole.
I agree that ALL have sinned etc. and that we must not judge others, but, I just cannot accept that children brought up in the said circumstances will enjoy a 'near normal' life, or at least look forward to a near normal future. Last year, 2 men were sentenced to prison for abusing a child they had adopted. Yes, I know, this is one blip in countless cases, but should a child be put in that sort of situation? I know it can happen to any adopted child, but we can lessen(should that be increase?) the odds, can't we?
point 3. I don't think it is a case of who is /is not good enough to be a parent. Paul is particularly scathing in his remarks concerning homosexual/lesbian behaviour and I believe we should be also. (condemming the act not the offenders of course.) If we believe the act of homosexuality to be an abomination of God's creation, then surely we cannot allow our babies/children/youth to be placed in a situation where that activity is prevalent and normal!! And if I am to be honest, in answer to your first 2 points in paragraph 3, yes I do feel it is right to preserve our right of conscience and yes I would want to prevent same sex couples from adopting.
ps. at 10.40 am. this morning I was fabricating a 2000 gallod diesel tank. Should you not have been architecting a church???

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paulvipond · Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Bury

Its tea break time again. A few non-scholarly thoughts as one who is committed to trying to think things through to establish not just what we believe but why we believe it. So bear with me for a few questions for which I do not necessarily claim to have answers.

Your case studies(which are by no means stupid). Do they show a christian analysis or do they show unanalysed preconceptions?
The "mum/dad" format for families is clearly biblical butthe "nuclear" family of mum+dad+2.4 kids is not found in the New Testament. Yet your question seems to pre-suppose that it is.

Question. Is a heterosexual marriage with a violent dad better than a homosexual civil partnership between 2 lesbians as far as children are concerned? And what is the evidence for our answer?

Question. How do you define "near normal" and how far off "normal" can you be to be "near" enough? Is a widowed parent near enough?

Question. How does sexual activity in private (hetero or homo) affect how you bring up your kids? Most kids find the thought of heterosexual sex between their parents pretty revolting! (Unless thats just my kids)

Question. In the light of Galatians 5:21 is a homosexual parent worse than one who is envious or jealous or prone to anger?

Question. Out of revulsion do we make homosexual sin the "unforgiveable" sin?

Now lest you think I am in favour of adoption by homosexuals I am not. How much more impressive though if the Church had a positive approach to bring. Let me give you a parallel example. I was always impressed by the RC approach to abortion. Not only opposing and saying this is wrong but opening homes where young mums could give birth in security. Like Jesus, WORD and DEED.

What would the parallel in this case look like?
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Make you walk in the dust of your rabbi, Jesus

acewelder · Joined: 29 Jan 2007 Posts: 5

My case studies came from the top of my head (which is full of holes where years of molten globules have landed!) and are just hypotheticals. On thinking hard I guess I am looking at them from a common sense approach.
I agree that the mum+dad+2.4 children isn't found in the scriptures, but would not our creator (had He felt it to be in the interest of mankind) have given Adam a mate of a different gender? Maybe I'm being childish here!

quetion 1. We are only debating the adoption of children aren't we? It is because of such marriages that children are often taken to be placed in a safe and loving environment.

question 2. Yes, a widowed parent is near normal. As that parent is just that, the childs natural mother/father.

question 3. There would come a time in the child's life when he/she fully understands what sexual activity (hetero) is actually for. The knowledge of what was going on in the 'parents'(remember, they are not parents) bedroom at night could surely have a serious effect on him/her? Adversly, it is possible that they could be encouraged into thinking that homosexual activity is the 'norm'

question 4. Just off to get the good book.......... Right. I should have known it was that (the missus did!!!) as 5.22 is one of my favourite verses. Again I would suggest that children are not placed in homes where this sort of behaviour is well known. (that scenario could also occur in a same sex adoptive home)

questio 5. NO! that remains the grieving of the Holy Spirit.yes?

question 6. The parallel is surely the opening of more christian adoption agencies and more christian families being prepared to offer their homes and their lives to ensure babies/children/youth are given the best possible start in life. Bathed in love and warmth which eminates from true followers of Jesus.
ps. I have always been disappointed by the apparent lack of interest in adopting/fostering at Seedfield. Over the 40 odd years there I am unable to recollect many who have given of their best in this area.

GeneWyrm · Joined: 04 Feb 2007 Posts: 6

acewelder · Joined: 29 Jan 2007 Posts: 5

ok, Gene Wyrm
I fully understand and empathise with you regarding our rights to express our faith. Under no circumstances must you think of your views as paranoia. As I stated in church a few days ago, the darkness which is enveloping the earth, and our nation in particular, has got to be halted. Satan will not be driven out by words and debates. He must be defeated in the heavenly realms and the only way for that to happen is by shear numbers of christians prepared to sacrifice time and get together and pray the victory through.
Join us in our prayer meetings and lets make a start.

Darthmiller · Joined: 03 Mar 2007 Posts: 27

Can anything be so lost that it cannot be found?
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Eli · Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:33 am Post subject:

On the homosexual rights (and wrongs) discussion, "inclination" is just as culpable as practice in God's eyes. Remember, "he who looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his mind." Romans 1 reveals how God gives up on those who engage in idolatry, to worship and serve other gods, and allows them to engage in what the ESV calls "dishonorable passions". These aren't the only things that God gives them up for either (vs 29-32). The key to His condemnation of "inclination" lies in v32 - giving approval to those who practice them. You don't have to be a practising homosexual, you just need to give your approval to show your position in the light (and fire) of God's judgement.

I feel that "Good" Methodists, need to be aware of OUTCOME and their agenda for the denomination... http://www.outcomeonline.org.uk/

Romans 1 24-32 ESV follows (for reference)

24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another,men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

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