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paulvipond · Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Bury

What is it about America that we both love and hate?
Why is it that the church in the USA is both a challenge to us and a warning?

Some one recently said to me that it would be good is we had a "Christian" political party to vote for. I look at America and I am not so sure.
Would we be trapped in the same either/or scenario?
Anti abortion = pro-gun = pro-Iraq war = republican
Pro-abortion = concern for the poor = democrat
(See Jim Wallis' God's Politics fo a fuller analysis.)

Even Christian life is more complex than that. How do we claim the freedom to be:

Anti-abortion
Pro-marriage
Biased to the poor
Committed to environmental change
Pro-justice

and whatever else you want to put on your list?
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Eli · Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:55 am Post subject:

Ah, if only Americans were as clear cut in their definitions as you suggest. I've known pro-abortion Republicans, for example, that "bucked the trend" of their president's principles.

By the same token, all English men wear bowler hats and prefix every sentence with "I say, old chap..."

There are extremists like Fred Phelps who, being larger than life, attract our attention, but the majority of Americans are just like ourselves, with the same old mix of beliefs.

The church in the USA can't really be generalised. Just about anyone can start their own church (and they do.) The Baptist church seems to grow by division whilst whole communities like the Amish and Hutterites live in a time-warp to preserve their Christian lifestyle. There are "Mega-churches" of thousands of members, although using the American principle of maintaining deceased members on the roll would no doubt improve numbers over here as well. There are also faithful congregations of a dozen or so.

Of course, if you're wanting comment on the "church" as God sees her, rather than through our eyes, the picture would be different...
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paulvipond · Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Bury

DavidH · Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 18

Interestingly, the Christian Institute has a web page that shows the way that current MP's voted on issues of Christian conscience

I was a little astounded at the way that some MP's voted and, to be fair, pleasantly surprised at some others who might have been expected to vote in a manner unsympathetic to Christian thinking.

Having said that, government, in the alleged democracies like the UK and USA is supposed to be representative of the people. If (please, Lord,) there was a huge, nationwide revival that put God's perspective back into public thinking, would MP's still try to please their constituents or would we all vote for the "Conservative Christian Social Democrat Party"?

Who knows? It's a bit speculative.

PS CofE, Christian?
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Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come:
and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:7
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GeneWyrm · Joined: 04 Feb 2007 Posts: 6

Wow having read some of the posts on this board I feel a little unschooled.

To answer the question purely from a personal opinion view, and having never read God's Politics (though I would like to), I am skeptical of the merger of the term Christian with politics.

I would love to see Christianity revolutionise society, but would rather it came from the hearts of people, bottom up, rather than from the halls of power, top down.
Obviously if the majority of the population became "Christian" then there would be an major influence on the halls of power.....

As an interesting aside how would the variation of beliefs we see in "Christians" affect a Christian polical party?
And how does being pro-Kingdom (God's Kingdom) influence your national identity and national loyalty?
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Everyone thinks their opinion is the right one, if they didn't they'd get a new one

paulvipond · Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Bury

GeneWyrm · Joined: 04 Feb 2007 Posts: 6

My reticence of merging politics and Christianity does perhaps come from the fact that we often see politics as something done to us from above. Though perhaps also it is that as soon as we are in those political halls of power we are playing by the rules of the world. Though I do believe that people such as Daniel and David (the Biblical persons) as well as Wilberforce and Shaftesbury make a good model of Christians in positions of worldly power.
Some reticence also comes from the fact that often as Christians we have disagreements amongst ourselves, for instance on the stance of homosexuality.
Also how would a Chrisitan party regulate something like abortion - if a Christian polictical party obtained power would they than ban abortion, potentially forcing it underground
How would we descriminate when faced with people of other faiths - do we allow the church greater freedoms?
Would we disband our armies?
Or do we allow things to be as they are but feed more taxed into promoting Christian interest groups?

I am not saying that the smaller issues are impossible to deal with, or that they shouldn't, but they are certainly not easy. Even if 70% of the country was Christian and voted for a Christian party are we then trying to force a Christian way of living on the other 30%? how does this then fit with the love that we are supposed to show?

I believe that there are Christian people who have a God given vocation as politicians and we should support them where possible. They should be agents of transformation where they are, just as we should be agents of transformation where we are. Everyone living their life as Jesus would live their life; this though is surely a call to radical obidience? How does a call to proclaim Jesus is our Lord and Master fit with what we see as modern politics? Should we then redifine politics if we have a Christian polictical party? If we, as Christians, persue political power to change society is that right or wrong - especially within the context of a democracy where we are free to do this? We have been blessed as Christians (in this country) to be able to vote, and at least have a marginal decision, how should we exercise our vote? I would wager that Christian votes were divided amongst most political parties last election time =>

The gospel is no doubt very political in nature, from its early roots proclaiming Jesus is Lord which set it directly against Caeser to now, as we see aspects of it affect modern democracies.
The gospel has implications that affect the whole of our sphere of life, including political.

I would ideally like to see the Christian Church spread through hearts like ripples in a pond, the stone cast into the pond is Jesus spreading out until the whole pond is affected by this one stone (is this even a good analogy).
I think we all have a part to play, as Christians, if that is to be a reality. Unfortunately we seem to be fragmented amongst ourselves.... most of us can't agree on the music....

How much affect is "our yeast" having on society?

Hopefully all this random typing makes some sense, trying to scribe a hasty set of thoughts whilst working is probably not the best way to work =>

Thanks for the link, definitely an interesting read.
Not sure what the anabaptist tradition really is, other than it emerged around C16th and we get the hutterites, amish etc from them. Most of them live in seperate communities, often being self governed, are pacifistic in nature, have moved a lot due to persecution and don't use much modern technology.... though I am not sure which of those points applies to which communities... perhaps i should go read wikipedia....

Also Mr Vip what is your take on the whole topic?

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Everyone thinks their opinion is the right one, if they didn't they'd get a new one