seedfieldtalk.myfastforum.org

countrydancer · Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Posts: 20 Location: any local ceilidh

I am becoming increasingly convinced that infant baptism has no biblical warrant and its practice is wrong. The alternative is not adult baptism but believers baptism. Anyone out there prepared to argue the case?
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Someone at the folk dance club said why was I there if I was a Calvinist. I said it was predestined!
(Obviously they had this idea that Calvinists and Puritans can't have fun)

DavidH · Joined: 14 Aug 2007 Posts: 18

The scary thing is the scriptures that they use to justify infant baptism in the old Methodist Service Book. "Suffer the little children..." indeed!
Talk about taking a text out of context to make it a pretext.

"Believer's baptism" is the only baptism that is scriptural. That is, the immersion in water (and subsequent resurfacing, of course,) of the individual who makes a public confession of their conversion and faith in Jesus. This encourages the church and is an act of obedience for the individual.

There may be a case for some kind of ritual washing, I suppose, but the baptism of the bible symbolises the lowering in death and the rising (clean) to eternal life. I guess this implies that only full immersion baptism will do.

However.....

What happens if the person wishing to be baptised has a water phobia or some kind of disability that prevents their full immersion?

also...

is baptism necessary for salvation? Accepting that generally the scriptures teach "Repentance and baptism" as the formula for new believers, There is a prominent instance of an unbaptised (but repentant) person being promised paradise by Jesus. I suspect that slavish adherence to the R&B formula may sail perilously close to works-righteousness as a means to salvation.

What think ye?
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Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come:
and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
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countrydancer · Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Posts: 20 Location: any local ceilidh

Thanks for your comments David and as you would expect I agree with them. In the examples you quote pouring water over would surely be acceptable and no, baptism is not essential for salvation. (There is an interesting debate going on at the moment between John Piper and Wayne Grudem about the necessity of believers baptism for church membership in churches that practice believers baptism and also whether it is possible for a church to accept either - see Desiring God website)

However I was more interested in whether anyone who belonged to Seedfield, (being a Methodist Church), believed in infant baptism and could justify it biblically! Come on Darth. Presumably as you are training to be a Methodist minister you must believe in infant baptism as you will have to practice it. How do you justify it biblically? Answers on a postage stamp please!
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Someone at the folk dance club said why was I there if I was a Calvinist. I said it was predestined!
(Obviously they had this idea that Calvinists and Puritans can't have fun)

countrydancer · Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Posts: 20 Location: any local ceilidh

As well as the Desiring God website folks might like to look at a couple of helpful christian blogs with contributions on the baptism debate.

adrianwarnock.com and between two worlds by justin taylor on theologica.blogspot.com
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Someone at the folk dance club said why was I there if I was a Calvinist. I said it was predestined!
(Obviously they had this idea that Calvinists and Puritans can't have fun)

Eli · Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Baptism

paulvipond · Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Bury

paulvipond · Joined: 14 Nov 2006 Posts: 60 Location: Bury

Darthmiller · Joined: 03 Mar 2007 Posts: 27

Firstly. I am not presently training to be a presbyter or a deacon, I am just doing foundation training.
Secondly. When I do candidate in October it will be as a candidate for the Diaconate.
Thirdly. It is not a prerequisite for presbyters or deacons to BELIEVE in infant baptism, merely to perform it if the Parents insist even after having the alternatives such as dedication explained to them as well as what ba[tism means.
Fourthly. This whole infant baptism comes from the extremely shakey doctrine of original sin courtesy of St Augustine of Hippo. So the infant baptism was to ensure that infants with their inherited original sin could get in to heaven
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Going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.

countrydancer · Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Posts: 20 Location: any local ceilidh

Come on Paul. There is a bit of a difference between not agreeing with every bit of doctrine of the denomination you belong to and having to oversee a form of sacrament one does not agree with!
Anyway I am not a Methodist by choice but because it was where my parents sent me, where I became a Christian and the nearest local church which preached the gospel (that is Walmersley Road methodist for the first two and Seedfield for the third) - I may get round to commenting on your what is the gospel posting when I have thought through my answer.
I have always seen myself more as belonging to Seedfield than to Methodism over the years because of the many issues I have had with the denomination over its liberal theology.
I think Wesley was more of an evangelist than a theologian and don't forget there were significant groups of calvinistic methodists - followers of Whitfield and much of Welsh methodism.
I would agree with you on the dedication issue and would suggest that a thanksgiving and naming service is more in order.[/u]
_________________
Someone at the folk dance club said why was I there if I was a Calvinist. I said it was predestined!
(Obviously they had this idea that Calvinists and Puritans can't have fun)

countrydancer · Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Posts: 20 Location: any local ceilidh

Thanks Darth for clearing that up!!
But what are presbyters and deacons in the methodist set up? We have never had either at Seedfield (at least not by those names)
You still haven't said why you believe the doctrine of original sin is extremely shaky! If we are not born sinners how do we become sinners and is it possible for a person never to sin and therefore not need a Saviour?
(Also as Paul said and I agreed with above there is no biblical warrant for a dedication service)

_________________
Someone at the folk dance club said why was I there if I was a Calvinist. I said it was predestined!
(Obviously they had this idea that Calvinists and Puritans can't have fun)